"A fishbone is such a basic mapping and can be done very fast with a tool like MindManager, but you don't offer that. Why?"

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"A fishbone is such a basic mapping and can be done very fast with a tool like MindManager, but you don't offer that. Why? I want to be able to use the cool shortcut keys in your tool to add subordinate legs of the Ishakawa diagram and move around just like any other mindmap. So frustrating that I can't use my favorite brainstorming tool to use this very common function. Can't even to a Left flowing diagram from the formatting options, which would at least be a start, but really want to sit in a room with a team and hammer out that fishbone with dozens of sub topics and layers, with auto-growth helping me."
(from Tim Jones)
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Mindjet

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Posted 7 years ago

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Jeff Harmed

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Yes I agree that MindManager has basically ignored the need to incorporate other drawing models into mind mapping. It's a shame that they couldn't simply add "Sketch type" under format and allow other templates to facilitate fishbones, process flow diagrams with recycles, cyclic sketches etc,

Kind regards

Jeff
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andrew capey

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IMHO
As mindmaps are hierarchical structures (i.e. trees), I assume that the underlying data file is geared to support a hierarchy. Consequently other diagram structures such as fish-bone, which are not hierarchical would be a real pain to program.
The flip side is that general diagramming tools such as visio will have a generalised data file structure but then pays the price in terms of speed & complexity of the s/w when new functions are developed.
This is also the reason why trying to model cyclic processes in MM is so difficult - both from user & developer viewpoints. You don't see many trees with wheels growing on them.
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Mike Mayo-Smith

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Agree. No fishbone diagrams is a serious short fall of Mindjet. Maybe it is hard to code, but I'm sure they could figure it out...users should not need to suffer because of the background software architecture.
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Ary Velstra, Expert Trainer

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Actually we use MIndjet a lot for Fishbone diagramming. Mindjet provides us with free templates that support this wonderful technique.
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Mick Jones

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Hi Ary,
Have been trying trying to find that template. Is it in one of the "Maps for That" folders?
(I looked in Biggerplate as well)
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Mick Jones

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Found them Manufacturing, Sales & Services, in the PROBLEM SOLVING section in templates under NEW MAP

it looks OK at least to start, and uses "blank" Topics to achieve the effect, but to the comments above, it is not a neat or seamless Fishbone solution.
I am sure Ishikawa purists would prefer the original shape...
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Ary Velstra, Expert Trainer

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@Mick So you found them in the most logical place ;-)

As a matter of fact I am extremely happy with the extra value of combining Kaoro Ishikawa's fishbone diagramming with mindmapping - and the powerful brainstorm facilities in Mindjet-.
Those extra benefits, confimed by any purist I know, are the reason to do fishbone analysis in your mindmap tool.
Remember: It is not the picture you're after, but the cause of a problem.

People who want to do just ishikawa diagramming, could best stick to what they know and understand.
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Mick Jones

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Hi ary,
As usual you are at pains to display your detailed Mj knowledge. Jolly well done.
Unfortunately you don't have a full grasp on what business process managers are about, in a large global enterprise.
Many of us use various tools, I have been using Mindjet for many years, but it is comprehensive enough to be the only tool. In the same way, the Ishikawa diagram is only one small methodology in our arsenal. The MJ template is somewhat cumbersome with the blank topics and is a compromise. It is not instantly recognizable, especially as you add details and levels, to other people with whom we collaborate. This is especially true if they are using tools which more faithfully represent the dishonest layout.
The original requests from Jeff and Andrew are valid. As you know there are other mapping tools that offer the layout, and it should not be difficult to replicate.
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Ary Velstra, Expert Trainer

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If Mindjet wants to include it, I will ofcourse support it. For that matter... any idea that extends the useability of Mindjet software again, is a good one.

Ofcourse the MIndjet template is a compromise, but if you are a seasoned Business Process Manager like me, with over 40 years experience in the field, working in projects for -and with- about 45 of the top 100 companies globally, it may be that the compromise is just what you need to get the job done.
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Mick Jones

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You miss the point. the compromise may get the job done for an individual, but with MJ positioning themselves with two of their "pillars" being collaboration and visualisation it is important that they match the standards being set by other tools in the marketplace.
Regarding credentials I can match the 40+years, and have worked directly for AT&T, HDS a Hitachi subsidiary, BT and NetApp, and taken my own Services company public on NASDAQ. So I believe I know what I am talking about. I am about to start a new program at another big name company, and will probably use MJ 2012 personally, and I hope I find some other users there.
The compromise you suggested is OK for a work around but the suggestion is a good one. MJ needs to work at staying ahead on their offerings, particularly with the changes in the pricing and subscription models.
I realise you depend on Mindjet as the product you resell, and I have always been an avid supporter and user of the product, but with the other SW tools available on the market they cannot afford to sit still.
I also realise, having watched the various forums that you like to have the last word so be my guest.